WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:10.000 You are now attending a talk title, the geopolitics of code. 00:10.000 --> 00:12.000 Thank you all for being here. 00:12.000 --> 00:13.000 My name is Anil. 00:13.000 --> 00:14.000 I have here. 00:14.000 --> 00:16.000 I have here. 00:16.000 --> 00:22.000 We'd like to serve with you some thoughts and ideas that we've been discussing for the last few years. 00:22.000 --> 00:24.000 Well, let's go into this. 00:24.000 --> 00:26.000 So first of all, why we are here? 00:26.000 --> 00:28.000 This is kind of the back story. 00:28.000 --> 00:29.000 So Dario is here. 00:29.000 --> 00:31.000 We're supposed to be here. 00:31.000 --> 00:34.000 It's the original author of, oh, oh, this is okay now. 00:34.000 --> 00:40.000 So Dario is the original author of one of the papers that is part of El Cano Royale Institute. 00:40.000 --> 00:46.000 El Cano Royale Institute is a think tank in Spain that is discussing basically about geopolitics. 00:46.000 --> 00:57.000 And this is the first time, at least to the best of my understanding, that this kind of things funded by some ministries and public administrations and big corporations are doing this kind of analysis. 00:57.000 --> 00:59.000 It's particularly in Spain. 00:59.000 --> 01:04.000 And Dario was supposed to be here, but you get me instead, so sorry about that. 01:04.000 --> 01:05.000 Let's go. 01:05.000 --> 01:08.000 Let's move forward. 01:08.000 --> 01:12.000 So after this article happened, we had a meeting. 01:12.000 --> 01:21.000 We had a variety of participants in the meeting at El Cano Royale Institute to discuss about how to secure the digital infrastructure of Europe. 01:21.000 --> 01:33.000 We had some profiles coming from non-profit, from Spain, specifically some guys from cyber security, head of security, some private companies, 01:33.000 --> 01:42.000 public administrations, and people, specifically as well, from different geographical regions, including China, United States and so on. 01:42.000 --> 01:49.000 And they also put diverse people into the table and talk about freedom of silver and the geopolitics implications of that. 01:49.000 --> 01:50.000 Exactly. 01:50.000 --> 01:54.000 And then the day after, we celebrated a conference called Digital Resilience Forum. 01:54.000 --> 01:55.000 Because the day after, right? 01:55.000 --> 01:56.000 Exactly. 01:56.000 --> 01:57.000 29th of October. 01:57.000 --> 02:02.000 You have here in the QR website and the final document in case you want to read this. 02:02.000 --> 02:09.000 And then you can see here some probably maybe faces that you recognize, including United Nations, 02:09.000 --> 02:16.000 Adrian Agro, coming from Soviet-Ethetic Agency from Germany, John Elyse or Amanda Brok from Open UK. 02:16.000 --> 02:24.000 So all of this basically to summarize and the back of story to say, well, definitely we need to discuss more. 02:24.000 --> 02:25.000 We need to do more research. 02:25.000 --> 02:26.000 We need to do more analysis. 02:26.000 --> 02:29.000 And definitely we need to search this with more stakeholders. 02:29.000 --> 02:30.000 And that's why we are here. 02:30.000 --> 02:31.000 That's a main reason of this talk. 02:31.000 --> 02:34.000 And thank you all for coming today in it. 02:34.000 --> 02:36.000 And the idea is basically to engage again in further meetings. 02:36.000 --> 02:39.000 By the way, some concepts that we were discussing that day. 02:39.000 --> 02:41.000 It was part of the meeting as well. 02:41.000 --> 02:46.000 We were discussing topics as global open source versus local open source. 02:46.000 --> 02:48.000 Maybe it's coming again. 02:48.000 --> 02:53.000 We were discussing topics as for instance, or digital colonization. 02:53.000 --> 02:56.000 We were discussing about what digital infrastructure means. 02:56.000 --> 03:00.000 So there are some, let's say, hot topics out there. 03:00.000 --> 03:02.000 And a bit about us. 03:02.000 --> 03:03.000 So I'll start first. 03:03.000 --> 03:04.000 My name is Daniel Lichardo. 03:04.000 --> 03:07.000 I, as well as my PhD advisor at the University of New York. 03:07.000 --> 03:08.000 In the years ago. 03:08.000 --> 03:09.000 Very well. 03:09.000 --> 03:10.000 Yeah, I finished in 2012. 03:10.000 --> 03:11.000 So it's been a while. 03:11.000 --> 03:17.000 And I'm the CEO of the third year, a consultancy company in development analytics and business intelligence 03:17.000 --> 03:18.000 and open source. 03:18.000 --> 03:21.000 And then I'm the chair of the inner source command foundation on part of the board member of 03:21.000 --> 03:25.000 chaos at the stands for community health analytics for open source software. 03:25.000 --> 03:27.000 And I'm as well as one third barona. 03:27.000 --> 03:30.000 I'm working at Rijon Carrucci University in Madrid. 03:30.000 --> 03:35.000 I've been involved in a free and open source software from different roles for many years. 03:35.000 --> 03:37.000 And the world. 03:37.000 --> 03:43.000 Now I want to talk to with Danny about all of his things that basically are our thoughts. 03:43.000 --> 03:48.000 By the way, if you want download their slides, they're on the web page of the talk. 03:48.000 --> 03:52.000 Because you have many links that you can try while we talk or maybe later. 03:52.000 --> 03:55.000 But try to download their slides, please. 03:55.000 --> 03:56.000 Okay. 03:56.000 --> 03:59.000 So things change a lot during the last years. 03:59.000 --> 04:02.000 I remember in 2007, well, 2006, I joined the research group. 04:02.000 --> 04:05.000 You were ahead of the research group, leave yourself. 04:05.000 --> 04:08.000 And then we were part of some research projects. 04:08.000 --> 04:10.000 One specifically was called flowsboard. 04:10.000 --> 04:17.000 The goal of this was about mining 40s, sort of 40s out there about source code that was, 04:17.000 --> 04:22.000 you know, from China, from Argentina, basically from all ecosystems that were out of Europe. 04:22.000 --> 04:25.000 And the USA, because those were the main two contributors. 04:25.000 --> 04:26.000 And that was the result. 04:26.000 --> 04:28.000 We know about the two main contributors. 04:28.000 --> 04:31.000 The rest of the country were producing just a bit. 04:31.000 --> 04:37.000 So they say that like 20 years ago, 300 pieces of work was mainly a European and nothing more can think. 04:37.000 --> 04:38.000 Exactly. 04:38.000 --> 04:40.000 There was very few collaborations from other parts of the world. 04:40.000 --> 04:43.000 And we can see now, this is a October from GitHub. 04:43.000 --> 04:46.000 I probably, you know, you know about this report. 04:46.000 --> 04:50.000 That they estate, well, this is kind of a list of the most important contributors nowadays to, 04:50.000 --> 04:53.000 to the open source ecosystem in general. 04:54.000 --> 04:57.000 But we have India, China, Brazil, and some more countries. 04:57.000 --> 04:59.000 In other words, you can see many new actors. 04:59.000 --> 05:01.000 And many of them are quite important. 05:01.000 --> 05:05.000 We can no longer ignore the rest of the world as a community. 05:05.000 --> 05:06.000 Exactly. 05:06.000 --> 05:07.000 This is another angle. 05:07.000 --> 05:10.000 OSS Compass is an open source community based in China. 05:10.000 --> 05:16.000 They are producing analytics to understand basically the open source ecosystem. 05:16.000 --> 05:18.000 And this is basically their results. 05:18.000 --> 05:20.000 They are aggregating some of them. 05:20.000 --> 05:23.000 We can see European Union, we can see UK. 05:23.000 --> 05:25.000 But again, it's kind of a similar approach. 05:25.000 --> 05:27.000 We have USA in the China, etc. 05:27.000 --> 05:33.000 But in both cases, remember that the European Union and Europe in general is high in these ranks, right? 05:33.000 --> 05:34.000 Exactly. 05:34.000 --> 05:39.000 And this is something from a study commission by the European Commission. 05:39.000 --> 05:46.000 And this is basically about how different the regions in the world countries are dealing with policies related to open source. 05:46.000 --> 05:49.000 Both in the public administration and in the private sector. 05:49.000 --> 05:51.000 Basically, you can see there is a lot of variety. 05:51.000 --> 05:53.000 On the left, we have countries in Europe. 05:53.000 --> 05:55.000 On the right, we have countries in other parts of the world. 05:55.000 --> 05:59.000 And you can see many different levels of advancement, 05:59.000 --> 06:03.000 that say, in this country, but also many differences from country to country. 06:03.000 --> 06:07.000 So that we can say that every country has been a different strategy. 06:07.000 --> 06:11.000 But most of them are doing something with respect to free and open source of work. 06:11.000 --> 06:15.000 The green diveter, the red of the war, basically. 06:16.000 --> 06:19.000 So basically, there is a class in now, right? 06:19.000 --> 06:21.000 Open source is everywhere. 06:21.000 --> 06:23.000 Open source is now fundamental. 06:23.000 --> 06:25.000 And open source is really, really global. 06:25.000 --> 06:31.000 And something important is this force being fundamental, being essential. 06:31.000 --> 06:34.000 We can no longer, as a society, live without force. 06:34.000 --> 06:36.000 It is moving the cloud. 06:36.000 --> 06:37.000 It is moving mobile. 06:37.000 --> 06:38.000 It is moving AI. 06:38.000 --> 06:40.000 It is moving a lot of things. 06:40.000 --> 06:44.000 And that means that the society is realizing how much they depend on free and open source of work. 06:44.000 --> 06:47.000 But we, as if we are an open source of a community, 06:47.000 --> 06:50.000 also have a responsibility that we didn't have like 20 years ago. 06:50.000 --> 06:54.000 Because just a few parts of the society were really using our products. 06:54.000 --> 06:56.000 But now, most of it is using it. 06:56.000 --> 06:59.000 The question now is basically given all the geopolitics. 06:59.000 --> 07:02.000 If this is happening at the wrong timing history. 07:02.000 --> 07:05.000 Now that we are global, we have all of these problems, right? 07:05.000 --> 07:07.000 And why in the wrong timing, then? 07:07.000 --> 07:11.000 So we can see how open source is affected from different perspectives. 07:11.000 --> 07:14.000 So we serve a couple of great presentations about the CRA. 07:14.000 --> 07:15.000 So we have regulations. 07:15.000 --> 07:16.000 We have the chalk point. 07:16.000 --> 07:21.000 For instance, get have a banning some developers from different countries, 07:21.000 --> 07:26.000 or even how, because open source is so basic for the digital infrastructure nowadays, 07:26.000 --> 07:29.000 how this can be used as a weapon. 07:29.000 --> 07:33.000 So we can summarize this as, when we were small, nobody care. 07:33.000 --> 07:36.000 But now that the open source is fundamental, 07:36.000 --> 07:39.000 some people are interested in using open sources again for weapon. 07:39.000 --> 07:41.000 Some people are interested in regulating it. 07:41.000 --> 07:45.000 Some people are interested in all kind of things that could affect 07:45.000 --> 07:47.000 in a wrong way to open source. 07:47.000 --> 07:52.000 Even when open source is the voting is given a lot to the society, right? 07:52.000 --> 07:54.000 So this is one of the cases. 07:54.000 --> 07:57.000 So we are subject to regulations in all the world. 07:57.000 --> 07:59.000 So we are subject for instance to you as regulations. 07:59.000 --> 08:03.000 And probably you know this incident about the same Russian developers, 08:03.000 --> 08:05.000 beat expert from the Linux corner. 08:06.000 --> 08:09.000 Basically being no longer able of the block in there. 08:09.000 --> 08:10.000 There are a lot of details. 08:10.000 --> 08:12.000 I'm not going to enter into them. 08:12.000 --> 08:17.000 But the basic idea is we can, we can be forbidden for working in a certain project, 08:17.000 --> 08:21.000 because of a certain regulations in a certain country. 08:21.000 --> 08:24.000 We have had a talk about CRA. 08:24.000 --> 08:27.000 And CRA again is going to affect us in different ways. 08:27.000 --> 08:32.000 Unfortunately, thanks to the lobbying to the European Commission and to European Union in general, 08:32.000 --> 08:35.000 the CRA is not that bad for open source. 08:35.000 --> 08:40.000 But in the end, what happens is the data infrastructure is being regulated. 08:40.000 --> 08:43.000 That means that if there is free open source of reddit, 08:43.000 --> 08:45.000 that is also being regulated somehow. 08:45.000 --> 08:49.000 And it can be better or worse that it is going to be regulated. 08:49.000 --> 08:52.000 And then this is not the new. 08:52.000 --> 08:56.000 So all people in the room, maybe remember the natives, 08:56.000 --> 09:01.000 when we had these things about cryptography being considered as a weapon. 09:01.000 --> 09:04.000 It basically in some countries like the United States of America, 09:04.000 --> 09:08.000 it was considering the same grail as nuclear bombs, for instance. 09:08.000 --> 09:11.000 And then there were export, export control, 09:11.000 --> 09:15.000 and you couldn't export a strong cryptography to rest of the world. 09:15.000 --> 09:18.000 And that had a lot of impact in the electronic commerce, for instance, 09:18.000 --> 09:23.000 because we could not really have secured a tiny commerce without a strong cryptography. 09:23.000 --> 09:28.000 And in the end, that was solved by a mixture of lobbying and changes in the environmental many other things. 09:28.000 --> 09:31.000 But still, this thing that regulation is affecting flows, 09:31.000 --> 09:34.000 is not something new in the world. 09:34.000 --> 09:36.000 Yeah, then we have some other example. 09:36.000 --> 09:41.000 This is a paper that was a study in the effect of a gift of sanctions 09:41.000 --> 09:46.000 for different countries, like for instance, here on the production of open source. 09:46.000 --> 09:51.000 At the end, what happens is that, well, people were able to work around these with VPNs and everything. 09:51.000 --> 09:57.000 But probably the most relevant discussion here is what is the effect of having most of the activity of open source in the world, 09:57.000 --> 10:01.000 or happening in one platform, second is in private hands, 10:01.000 --> 10:06.000 and then third is in the hands that is under the regulation of different countries. 10:06.000 --> 10:11.000 And remember, since force is essential, and everybody's interested in it, 10:11.000 --> 10:17.000 if we have a single point of failure, let's say, that single point can be used to control what the community can do. 10:17.000 --> 10:21.000 Imagine if a certain company is up for a billion to work in GitHub, 10:21.000 --> 10:23.000 or a certain country is up for a billion to work in GitHub. 10:23.000 --> 10:24.000 That could be done. 10:24.000 --> 10:28.000 And since this incident, the question is not if that can happen, 10:28.000 --> 10:31.000 maybe the question is when that is going to happen. 10:31.000 --> 10:38.000 And basically, the other problem related to this is all those developers and talent is now invisible to basically money. 10:38.000 --> 10:41.000 That could be funding all of this. 10:41.000 --> 10:46.000 And then, of course, we have to accept, you tell us a bacteria that everybody knows, 10:46.000 --> 10:49.000 because it was like in the press some months ago. 10:49.000 --> 10:54.000 And again, the idea here is somebody who was targeting 300% software 10:54.000 --> 10:57.000 because of the huge importance it has. 10:57.000 --> 11:00.000 So the idea is if I can somehow control the software, 11:00.000 --> 11:04.000 a king control a lot of things in the cloud in other places. 11:04.000 --> 11:09.000 So there is a lot of interest in some actors to do that kind of things, 11:09.000 --> 11:12.000 to plant back doors, for instance, in different kinds of software. 11:12.000 --> 11:15.000 But again, this is nothing new. 11:15.000 --> 11:20.000 This already happened more than 20 years ago when somebody tried to plant a back door in the Linux kernel. 11:20.000 --> 11:22.000 So in that case, it was prevented. 11:22.000 --> 11:24.000 Thanks to Gold Review. 11:24.000 --> 11:26.000 But the idea was there. 11:26.000 --> 11:31.000 And all of the attacks of all of the talks are the moments that this was an actor state trying to do that. 11:31.000 --> 11:33.000 As long as more than 20 years ago. 11:33.000 --> 11:35.000 So again, this is nothing new. 11:35.000 --> 11:40.000 The main difference is software free and open software is now so important. 11:40.000 --> 11:43.000 There is a lot of interest in this kind of stuff. 11:43.000 --> 11:44.000 Yep. 11:44.000 --> 11:46.000 And this issues are basically new. 11:46.000 --> 11:47.000 Are not new as you said. 11:47.000 --> 11:51.000 So now open source is again everywhere. 11:51.000 --> 11:53.000 Let us basically remark this fact. 11:53.000 --> 11:56.000 And now because of this open source is becoming a target. 11:56.000 --> 11:58.000 And it's somehow becoming a weapon. 11:58.000 --> 11:59.000 Right. 11:59.000 --> 12:03.000 So, and let's go a bit into the reality of the industry. 12:03.000 --> 12:07.000 So this is an example we were running in Biteria with some data analytics. 12:07.000 --> 12:11.000 But you can see in the table basically is the more you are to the right, 12:11.000 --> 12:12.000 the more risky. 12:12.000 --> 12:14.000 For a certain definition of risky. 12:14.000 --> 12:15.000 Right. 12:15.000 --> 12:16.000 And then we have some in the y-axis. 12:16.000 --> 12:17.000 We have some metrics. 12:17.000 --> 12:23.000 But in short, what we did was to analyze the first level dependencies of Kubernetes. 12:23.000 --> 12:25.000 Those made in goal. 12:25.000 --> 12:26.000 The programming language. 12:26.000 --> 12:27.000 Okay. 12:27.000 --> 12:29.000 So it's around 400 something packages. 12:29.000 --> 12:34.000 But with this cover is that approximately two thirds of them were at risk. 12:34.000 --> 12:38.000 And were at risk because there is no enough talent retention. 12:38.000 --> 12:41.000 There is no an active growth of contributors. 12:41.000 --> 12:45.000 And basically there are just a few people doing most of the work. 12:45.000 --> 12:48.000 So basically it's mainly an all community related. 12:48.000 --> 12:51.000 So there is certain risk of becoming in my team. 12:51.000 --> 12:53.000 Let's put this in in relative numbers. 12:53.000 --> 12:54.000 So the usual s-bomb. 12:54.000 --> 12:58.000 So the real of materials of a big corporation is around 100,000 components. 12:58.000 --> 13:01.000 We are discussing here about 400, but it's 0.4. 13:01.000 --> 13:02.000 Right. 13:02.000 --> 13:05.000 The percent of the total sample of an s-bomb. 13:05.000 --> 13:10.000 And we are discussing about Kubernetes, which is basically massively used here in the room. 13:10.000 --> 13:16.000 So what happened with the rest of the open source space? 13:16.000 --> 13:18.000 So let's talk a bit about the strategy. 13:18.000 --> 13:20.000 This is the situation up to now. 13:20.000 --> 13:24.000 And now different parts of the world doing different things. 13:24.000 --> 13:27.000 So for instance, the USA way. 13:27.000 --> 13:32.000 I'm not saying they have a specific strategy, but they have a specific situation. 13:32.000 --> 13:36.000 They have a lot of big corporations that have an interest in free and open source software. 13:36.000 --> 13:38.000 That are putting a lot of resources in them. 13:38.000 --> 13:43.000 Probably because they realize how important it is for their own strategy. 13:43.000 --> 13:45.000 They have huge foundations. 13:45.000 --> 13:47.000 Usually located there. 13:47.000 --> 13:48.000 Some of them are in Europe. 13:48.000 --> 13:55.000 But the biggest ones are currently located in the United States with funding from those companies. 13:55.000 --> 14:00.000 And they also have, let's say, the control of some basic infrastructure. 14:01.000 --> 14:03.000 But not only. 14:03.000 --> 14:09.000 If you think about services that we use, many of them are located in the United States. 14:09.000 --> 14:12.000 And therefore, they are subject to the United States regulation. 14:12.000 --> 14:16.000 So they have the kind of interest in situation in the world. 14:16.000 --> 14:19.000 So I'm not saying that they are controlling the free and open source software. 14:19.000 --> 14:22.000 But they are controlling a lot of staff in our community. 14:22.000 --> 14:25.000 Then China, it came a bit later to the discussion, right? 14:25.000 --> 14:27.000 But then the way they've been doing things. 14:27.000 --> 14:30.000 Initially, it's about, well, we are playing as a government. 14:30.000 --> 14:31.000 We are directing. 14:31.000 --> 14:32.000 We have policies. 14:32.000 --> 14:35.000 And then this is part, basically, of our national strategy. 14:35.000 --> 14:41.000 So then, of course, given, you know, the truck point having hit sanctions and this could happen again. 14:41.000 --> 14:43.000 What is what we should be doing as a country. 14:43.000 --> 14:46.000 So then, basically, what they are doing is creating their own stacks. 14:46.000 --> 14:50.000 So then, we are discussing about not having hit half, but we have getty. 14:50.000 --> 14:53.000 Maybe it's about not having our own operating systems. 14:53.000 --> 14:56.000 And then we move into open harmony or open uller. 14:56.000 --> 14:58.000 Sorry about the problems with that. 14:58.000 --> 15:03.000 Again, it's not necessarily that everything in curious intended. 15:03.000 --> 15:05.000 But the situation is like that. 15:05.000 --> 15:08.000 So to some extent, they have been their own infrastructure. 15:08.000 --> 15:15.000 And they seem to have a clearer strategy of using force for, let's say, keeping some independence in IT. 15:15.000 --> 15:17.000 And what do they do the European way? 15:17.000 --> 15:20.000 So that's a question that maybe we can discuss later. 15:20.000 --> 15:25.000 But in this context, probably, as Europeans, we don't have a clearer strategy. 15:25.000 --> 15:28.000 Are you sure? 15:28.000 --> 15:31.000 I don't know. 15:31.000 --> 15:33.000 So again, remarking again, the topic. 15:33.000 --> 15:38.000 So, well, forces everywhere is becoming truly global, it's truly essential. 15:38.000 --> 15:48.000 So this is kind of an open call to the community of can we survive as we've been working together during the last 20, 30 years. 15:48.000 --> 15:50.000 And that's an open call to everyone here. 15:50.000 --> 15:54.000 If we are going into a fragmented space, if we are working silo based, 15:54.000 --> 15:58.000 or if there are still a space for collaboration for next steps. 15:58.000 --> 16:01.000 Now, let's talk a little to a editor. 16:01.000 --> 16:03.000 Let's think a bit about an analogy. 16:03.000 --> 16:05.000 The analogy is about paths. 16:05.000 --> 16:07.000 So forget a bit about software. 16:07.000 --> 16:09.000 Let's talk about paths. 16:09.000 --> 16:11.000 Everybody knows them. 16:11.000 --> 16:14.000 Probably we have paths since we are human. 16:14.000 --> 16:19.000 People started working and they basically created the path by working. 16:19.000 --> 16:24.000 Then they started to realize how important it was to use to the next pillars. 16:24.000 --> 16:29.000 And they somehow improved the path so that walking near was easier and better. 16:29.000 --> 16:35.000 With time, they started to construct paths and all kinds of problems arise. 16:35.000 --> 16:42.000 Since path were that important for everybody, some people started to think about them in a different way. 16:42.000 --> 16:43.000 And you have tips. 16:43.000 --> 16:50.000 You have warlords trying to get you a pay for crossing a path and a staff laid out. 16:50.000 --> 16:56.000 There is a lot of coordination, which means less efficiency. 16:56.000 --> 17:00.000 Because if you are devising the path from my bills to the next one, 17:00.000 --> 17:05.000 maybe I miss in the long path for long-term transport. 17:05.000 --> 17:11.000 That's basically the more you scale, the more meta needs you need to recover. 17:11.000 --> 17:14.000 And produce and have him mind and have some strategies in place. 17:14.000 --> 17:19.000 In gaps appear because somebody needs to build the bridge. 17:19.000 --> 17:21.000 But nobody cares who is going to build it. 17:21.000 --> 17:24.000 Who is going to put resources for that and so on. 17:24.000 --> 17:26.000 So at the end, we have some solutions. 17:26.000 --> 17:28.000 Some people organized around that. 17:28.000 --> 17:31.000 So basically at some point paths started to be a common good. 17:31.000 --> 17:33.000 And people realized that. 17:33.000 --> 17:36.000 And then realized they need to put resources on that. 17:36.000 --> 17:39.000 And they realized they need to organize and coordinate with others. 17:39.000 --> 17:43.000 They realized that this was a basic facility for our work. 17:43.000 --> 17:45.000 And it was important for commerce. 17:45.000 --> 17:50.000 It was important for us going to the next country and see what happens there. 17:50.000 --> 17:54.000 So then as we have in the slides, the Roman world already understood this. 17:54.000 --> 17:56.000 Many older civilizations in the past. 17:56.000 --> 18:01.000 Maybe in the future, I'm going to think of this generation of people here in the room. 18:01.000 --> 18:02.000 So alternative. 18:02.000 --> 18:05.000 Let's think about 300% of the same way. 18:05.000 --> 18:10.000 So probably we were, let's say, in a tile free and open social work. 18:10.000 --> 18:13.000 And now we are young or maybe we are adult. 18:13.000 --> 18:16.000 And this became essential for everyone. 18:16.000 --> 18:18.000 And the rules are different. 18:18.000 --> 18:19.000 So. 18:19.000 --> 18:21.000 Yeah, exactly. 18:21.000 --> 18:23.000 And I think probably, I will go to the next slide. 18:23.000 --> 18:26.000 Because I think this is the key one here. 18:26.000 --> 18:29.000 So open source has been basically, we've been working on our site. 18:29.000 --> 18:31.000 We are producing this, we are producing that. 18:31.000 --> 18:34.000 And then it happens at some point. 18:34.000 --> 18:36.000 We've been relevant for the society. 18:36.000 --> 18:38.000 We are bringing innovation. 18:38.000 --> 18:39.000 We are working in a certain way. 18:39.000 --> 18:41.000 We are increasing productivity. 18:41.000 --> 18:42.000 We are bringing knowledge. 18:42.000 --> 18:43.000 We are bringing transparency. 18:43.000 --> 18:47.000 We are bringing new ways of working together and foster collaboration. 18:47.000 --> 18:52.000 And then it's so important nowadays that it's basically a real threat. 18:52.000 --> 18:54.000 We can say to our current societies. 18:54.000 --> 18:58.000 So then society needs to first be aware that this is happening. 18:58.000 --> 19:01.000 So it's basically a common mission here to say to the society. 19:01.000 --> 19:04.000 It's a society explained, educate that this is the process. 19:04.000 --> 19:07.000 But then at the same time in the analogy of the path. 19:07.000 --> 19:09.000 Now this is becoming important. 19:09.000 --> 19:12.000 So we need a society to take care of open source. 19:12.000 --> 19:16.000 So I'm going to put this important within the society to realize this. 19:16.000 --> 19:23.000 We need the society in general to realize that the free and open source community needs resources. 19:23.000 --> 19:25.000 That we need a friend environment. 19:25.000 --> 19:28.000 That we need freedom of innovation and many other things. 19:28.000 --> 19:32.000 Because we want to bring back to the community what we can build. 19:32.000 --> 19:34.000 But for that we need this kind of stuff. 19:34.000 --> 19:37.000 Especially now that we became important. 19:37.000 --> 19:41.000 We can be attacked by many different kinds of factors. 19:41.000 --> 19:45.000 So yeah, who can convey this to the society? 19:45.000 --> 19:49.000 And my guess is this is our mission because that's what we understand. 19:49.000 --> 19:53.000 So if you talk to people in Kenbany, if you talk to policymakers. 19:53.000 --> 19:56.000 If you talk even to social organizations. 19:56.000 --> 20:01.000 In the end it don't really understand how the free and open source of reward works. 20:01.000 --> 20:02.000 We know. 20:02.000 --> 20:05.000 So I think that it's our responsibility, we think. 20:05.000 --> 20:10.000 This is our responsibility to talk about this to them. 20:10.000 --> 20:13.000 And they have a certain responsibility of listening to us. 20:13.000 --> 20:16.000 Because in the end we are building this infrastructure. 20:16.000 --> 20:19.000 And the fact that this is an infrastructure is already there. 20:19.000 --> 20:25.000 The thing is that we need the rest of the society to consider that and to realize that. 20:25.000 --> 20:30.000 And because of that is our let's say our mission to explain to them this importance. 20:30.000 --> 20:32.000 Because otherwise they are not going to understand. 20:32.000 --> 20:37.000 You know that technology is something difficult to explain and difficult to understand to many people. 20:37.000 --> 20:44.000 And this is a specifically difficult because we have a weight combination of technology and social contracts. 20:44.000 --> 20:51.000 And we need to convey all of that to the people making decisions in all the environments within the society. 20:51.000 --> 20:53.000 Just an example here. 20:53.000 --> 20:58.000 So I had the opportunity to attend the open source of Congress hosted by Eccleson Dasion in September. 20:58.000 --> 21:00.000 I'm 2025. 21:00.000 --> 21:05.000 And there was quite an interest in discussion because there was someone coming from the European Commission. 21:05.000 --> 21:10.000 Policy makers and saying hey we we have a problem because you are so. 21:10.000 --> 21:15.000 I don't remember exactly the word that that the person used but fragmented that me used this word. 21:15.000 --> 21:19.000 That it's it's almost impossible for me to learn what are your requirements need. 21:19.000 --> 21:21.000 How to take care of you etc etc. 21:21.000 --> 21:26.000 There was an answer from the community we can say that it's Paul but that's the strength of the community. 21:26.000 --> 21:29.000 This is why we are here. This is why we are so resilient. 21:29.000 --> 21:37.000 And then but those places are super key to happen and have those conversations because that was probably one of the very first times. 21:37.000 --> 21:46.000 I saw in the same place policy makers and open source developers and having a conversation about how can we effectively reengage and have such discussion and move forward. 21:46.000 --> 21:54.000 Again we were working alone now we created some you know legal umbrella to protect ourselves from the issues. 21:54.000 --> 22:01.000 Now companies started consuming open source producing sometimes and then one of our stakeholders is basically policy makers. 22:01.000 --> 22:04.000 So it's all about how to make this possible. 22:04.000 --> 22:08.000 So we are talking about force as a common infrastructures. 22:08.000 --> 22:12.000 We have been talking about what's that. 22:12.000 --> 22:16.000 We have talked about who can convey that to the rest of the of the world. 22:16.000 --> 22:20.000 How can we really think about this switch? 22:20.000 --> 22:28.000 This change to let's consider open source as something in as a common infrastructures. 22:28.000 --> 22:30.000 So first of all we need to change the scale. 22:30.000 --> 22:34.000 The scale is no longer our world is more community the scale is the world. 22:34.000 --> 22:42.000 Everyone interested in joining and that doesn't mean only technical people that means people from other domains. 22:42.000 --> 22:52.000 We need to coordinate not only among us we need to coordinate with all of these older actors and we need to do that worldwide or at least as much worldwide as we can. 22:52.000 --> 22:55.000 And we know how to do it. We've been doing this for years. 22:56.000 --> 23:03.000 So when we were working on this slide we were discussing how to basically try to find the way. 23:03.000 --> 23:09.000 So we brought a lot of problems and discussions but then we wanted to bring like a path to move forward. 23:09.000 --> 23:12.000 And then we see that at least there should happen to think. 23:12.000 --> 23:20.000 There should be a support from those stakeholders but then at the same time we should they suit and interfere in somehow in the process. 23:20.000 --> 23:25.000 And it's important this balance because we now we need to support and we want to support. 23:25.000 --> 23:30.000 But we also don't want all the actors to interfere too much because we now how to do our staff. 23:30.000 --> 23:34.000 We now how to innovate we now in which direction we want to work. 23:34.000 --> 23:37.000 But still we need to do that in coordination with all of us. 23:37.000 --> 23:45.000 So this balance is complicated requires a lot of talking requires a lot of understanding but it's basic for this to work. 23:45.000 --> 23:48.000 So some examples about this. 23:48.000 --> 23:51.000 So how to promote open source for instance. 23:51.000 --> 23:56.000 We have many different actions in different parts of the world doing this from different points of view. 23:56.000 --> 24:00.000 For instance from the point of view of leading public administration, 24:00.000 --> 24:04.000 give preference to bind pre and open source over instead of any other things. 24:04.000 --> 24:06.000 So that has a lot of benefits. 24:06.000 --> 24:10.000 We are not going to deal with that now but there are some parts of the world doing that. 24:10.000 --> 24:15.000 It was then in Spain like 25 years ago with different success. 24:16.000 --> 24:19.000 All another examples. 24:19.000 --> 24:24.000 We need to create a for a for a first friendly ecosystem. 24:24.000 --> 24:30.000 We need to let people in the first communities stay easily let's say. 24:30.000 --> 24:36.000 There is an example from United Nations from the office for digital and emerging technologies. 24:36.000 --> 24:43.000 And they have the call the UN open source principles that have in some organizations that have been basically. 24:43.000 --> 24:48.000 Atopting them and public estate and we are we are following them. 24:48.000 --> 24:51.000 There are more examples like the CRA have we've seen. 24:51.000 --> 24:53.000 We don't have for. 24:53.000 --> 24:55.000 We had a couple of talks about it before this. 24:55.000 --> 25:02.000 And here the basic idea is we need this kind of regulations to not harm free and open source over. 25:02.000 --> 25:11.000 But work with it and recognize how we need certain rules for working and recognize for instance the role of a voluntary developers. 25:11.000 --> 25:16.000 And developers not affiliated with companies but at the same time as we said in the previous talk. 25:16.000 --> 25:24.000 We also need to recognize the specific role of companies that maybe are marketing the product free software developers are developing. 25:24.000 --> 25:28.000 And then the part of remove barriers basically so. 25:28.000 --> 25:39.000 Certification processes that are allowing open source to be part of the journey or at least have an education process to convince basically certification bodies to make this happen and how this should be. 25:39.000 --> 25:42.000 Moving forward to locate them on how. 25:42.000 --> 25:48.000 The community and the different corporations or universities or individuals are reinforcing support engineering, 25:48.000 --> 25:53.000 support security practices and have those in all align with the legislation. 25:53.000 --> 26:00.000 So remember that the idea is not only to help the phenoperson community but also to let the phenoperson community work. 26:00.000 --> 26:08.000 And for that we move in those kind of areas basically means that there is more room for action and you don't need to have the friction of the link with many different staff. 26:08.000 --> 26:11.000 That could be a barrier in the end. 26:11.000 --> 26:17.000 And we also need to fill the gaps and there are many gaps, mainly related to resources. 26:17.000 --> 26:24.000 To basic infrastructure, to funding and to funding specifically of research and development. 26:24.000 --> 26:30.000 So we know how to innovate for instance but usually we need some resources for that. 26:30.000 --> 26:33.000 We need how to collaborate but we need platform for collaborating. 26:34.000 --> 26:39.000 And those platforms and all of that infrastructure as we said is subject to different kinds of attacks. 26:39.000 --> 26:48.000 So we need to have that thing in a way that that we can work in it as we want. 26:48.000 --> 26:55.000 So again it's a combination and effort and coordination of the different basic entities that we can see here. 26:55.000 --> 27:00.000 We've been open source project basically the central piece. Again it's about having this conversation with the government. 27:00.000 --> 27:03.000 It's about having these conversations with foundations. 27:03.000 --> 27:14.000 It's great that we have people from, you know, European Commission and the CRA and all of this around across them because that means that the community has a, you know, we have mature. 27:14.000 --> 27:17.000 We have evolved. We are now part of the society we can say. 27:17.000 --> 27:22.000 So each of the actors in this slide have different skills and different resources. 27:22.000 --> 27:27.000 We need to combine all of them together and for that somebody needs to coordinate them. 27:27.000 --> 27:36.000 And again it's needs to be the first project and the first community because it's the only one that really understand them can understand all the aspects here. 27:36.000 --> 27:40.000 And where we can do that basically anyone. 27:40.000 --> 27:48.000 We've been doing so far to the point is how can we take advantage of open source being part of the community producing having a conversation right. 27:48.000 --> 27:51.000 At the point of view, I will come to this later. 27:51.000 --> 27:55.000 This is not how to make my country better than the other. 27:55.000 --> 28:01.000 This is not how to make my country the place with a free and open source of what the global happens and not the others. 28:01.000 --> 28:04.000 It's the other way around. We can work with anyone. 28:04.000 --> 28:09.000 So the area is let's try to make anyone willing to collaborate, collaborate. That's it. 28:09.000 --> 28:12.000 And why? 28:12.000 --> 28:16.000 So from some point of view one could say, well this is the ideal work. 28:16.000 --> 28:23.000 Sorry the ideal word. But this is too optimistic or this is something that is never going to happen. 28:23.000 --> 28:27.000 So the idea there are practical reasons why this should happen. 28:27.000 --> 28:33.000 And the main practical reason is if we really believe that free and open source is provided benefits, 28:33.000 --> 28:40.000 any region in the world they can do this kind of a staff basically is going to get a lot of advantages of what the others. 28:40.000 --> 28:42.000 But there are some problems to solve. 28:42.000 --> 28:45.000 So we've been discussing over this during this time. 28:45.000 --> 28:49.000 About the three first on the top, but probably you're aware of some of the others. 28:49.000 --> 28:52.000 And that's where this discussion should happen. 28:52.000 --> 28:55.000 So we've been discussing, yeah, lack of investment, fragmentation, weaponization. 28:55.000 --> 28:57.000 And all of that. 28:57.000 --> 28:59.000 Yeah, I'm many more basically. 28:59.000 --> 29:04.000 So at the end what we need is basically more experience, more experiences probably. 29:04.000 --> 29:09.000 So we need people entities to try and fail and win and save these works. 29:09.000 --> 29:12.000 And compare and share and collaborate basically. 29:12.000 --> 29:18.000 And we are seeing already a lot of these experiments in Europe and in any other parts of the world. 29:18.000 --> 29:25.000 We are seeing how public administration, how foundations, how individuals are trying a lot of things like this. 29:25.000 --> 29:32.000 But we still need to learn from that and to disseminate the learnings so that the next one that comes and tries now 29:32.000 --> 29:36.000 is now some of the lessons of the first one that maybe failed. 29:36.000 --> 29:41.000 So the question is going back into Europe as we are Europeans. 29:41.000 --> 29:43.000 Are we ready to let this? 29:43.000 --> 29:46.000 So remember that during this world position it for many reasons. 29:46.000 --> 29:48.000 We have a lot of developers. 29:48.000 --> 29:50.000 We have a lot of expertise. 29:50.000 --> 29:57.000 We are starting to get some expertise in this idea of collaborating with policymakers with companies. 29:57.000 --> 30:00.000 But still is that enough? 30:01.000 --> 30:03.000 And basically collaborate with others. 30:03.000 --> 30:06.000 There are many other actors in the world that could be interested in collaborating. 30:06.000 --> 30:12.000 As we said some of them already have policies related to open source and free software. 30:12.000 --> 30:18.000 Which maybe are aligned with the kind of things that we in Europe would need to collaborate with them or not. 30:18.000 --> 30:22.000 That's a matter of what's going to happen in the next few years. 30:22.000 --> 30:26.000 But remember all of us probably are interested in this to happen. 30:26.000 --> 30:31.000 So in a way that we can collaborate with all the parts of the world that are willing to collaborate. 30:31.000 --> 30:34.000 That doesn't mean Europe needs to lead. 30:34.000 --> 30:37.000 That may mean that Europe is leading with others at the same time. 30:37.000 --> 30:41.000 And we've seen that this is happening across corporations in the open source space. 30:41.000 --> 30:43.000 So why not at the level of states? 30:43.000 --> 30:45.000 Or do we miss the train? 30:45.000 --> 30:46.000 That's the main risk. 30:46.000 --> 30:50.000 So probably we are at one of those points in history. 30:50.000 --> 30:55.000 Whether either we do this kind of stuff or we are going to be left behind by yours. 30:55.000 --> 31:01.000 This is just something quite old. 31:01.000 --> 31:08.000 I was lucky enough to be a part of a working group in the European Commission more than 25 years ago. 31:08.000 --> 31:10.000 This is 1999. 31:10.000 --> 31:13.000 And we wrote this document for the European Commission then. 31:13.000 --> 31:16.000 Many of the things that we are talking today are already in that document. 31:16.000 --> 31:18.000 Of course, things have changed. 31:18.000 --> 31:21.000 Many of the things that are there are no longer valid. 31:21.000 --> 31:28.000 But still, we in Europe have been thinking about this idea of leading open source and all that like 25 years. 31:28.000 --> 31:30.000 So maybe it's time to do it, right? 31:30.000 --> 31:31.000 Yeah. 31:31.000 --> 31:34.000 By the way, 1999, that was my last year at high school. 31:34.000 --> 31:36.000 I was still doing another stuff. 31:36.000 --> 31:41.000 So the question is, not if we can do this because we have the talent we have the resources. 31:41.000 --> 31:45.000 We have the purchase power in Europe and basically everywhere else in the world. 31:45.000 --> 31:47.000 We have the now home. 31:47.000 --> 31:51.000 The question is, first we believe that open source drives innovation. 31:51.000 --> 31:54.000 And we can have better detailed services because of this. 31:54.000 --> 31:56.000 That's the first question. 31:56.000 --> 31:58.000 And that's a question basically as a community. 31:58.000 --> 32:00.000 So it doesn't matter if this is in Europe or not. 32:00.000 --> 32:01.000 Basically it's all around the world. 32:01.000 --> 32:06.000 The second question is, if we think that Europe could be a good home for all of this open source. 32:06.000 --> 32:08.000 Right? 32:08.000 --> 32:12.000 Now we have something which is right now ongoing. 32:12.000 --> 32:16.000 There is an open call for evidence by the European Commission. 32:16.000 --> 32:20.000 On how to build a digital ecosystem with open source. 32:20.000 --> 32:24.000 So everyone is invited to submit their opinions. 32:24.000 --> 32:28.000 And it's not something academic or something to commercial. 32:28.000 --> 32:30.000 Anyone can contribute. 32:30.000 --> 32:37.000 What they are looking for is let's say input for the future policies by the European Commission on this part. 32:37.000 --> 32:41.000 So if you have opinions, you can submit your opinion about that. 32:41.000 --> 32:43.000 By the way, opinions are public. 32:43.000 --> 32:47.000 You can also read the opinions by others. 32:47.000 --> 32:53.000 And again, I would like to stress the point that we all agree probably. 32:53.000 --> 32:56.000 And we say publicly that open source brings innovation. 32:56.000 --> 33:01.000 But the question to all of you in the room is if you really believe this is the case. 33:01.000 --> 33:03.000 I really believe this is the case. 33:03.000 --> 33:05.000 But that's it. 33:05.000 --> 33:06.000 Basically that's how we talk. 33:06.000 --> 33:07.000 Yeah, that's it. 33:07.000 --> 33:09.000 So thank you very much. 33:10.000 --> 33:11.000 Thank you. 33:20.000 --> 33:23.000 Many thanks for the great talk. 33:23.000 --> 33:26.000 I guess there are questions. 33:26.000 --> 33:28.000 Okay, I'll start on the right. 33:34.000 --> 33:38.000 Thank you for this interesting talk on this. 33:38.000 --> 33:40.960 It's a very important topic. 33:40.960 --> 33:49.200 Sorry, thank you for this interesting talk on this very important topic. 33:49.200 --> 34:03.920 In my opinion, I do not believe that Foss can bring us digital sovereignty if Europe allows 34:03.920 --> 34:12.560 large companies to keep exploiting network effects and to keep monopolizing markets 34:12.560 --> 34:21.640 and to keep monopolizing users what can Europe do to counteract this wave of monopolization 34:21.640 --> 34:27.640 in the tech sector? 34:27.640 --> 34:34.120 So, thank you for the question, so one of the, we discussed about this and the framework 34:34.120 --> 34:40.360 that we have in our minds is first this concept about open source being part basically 34:40.360 --> 34:46.440 of this basic yearning of everyone, it's like tweeting in somehow open source as our physical 34:46.440 --> 34:47.440 infrastructure, right? 34:47.440 --> 34:52.520 So this is key, I need to go from A to B to then that's part that's owned by the state, right? 34:52.520 --> 34:56.800 So that's one thing and then specifically in Europe, you may have different opinions or 34:56.800 --> 35:03.280 so in the room, but specifically in Europe, again, there is the European public directive 35:03.280 --> 35:06.880 for procurement that is happening next year, I think so of the expert here, so if there 35:06.880 --> 35:08.880 is someone else here, would be good to know. 35:08.880 --> 35:16.080 So that's a good starting point to have such discussion because it's basically how can we 35:16.080 --> 35:20.880 not force, but basically recommend what are the benefits, basically a open source beyond 35:20.880 --> 35:26.560 purely the economical fact that sometimes is what people are looking for, how can we force 35:26.640 --> 35:31.200 or basically open source to be part of the discussion, to be part of public administration 35:31.200 --> 35:36.960 procurement and then at the same time, play with the standards, solve for implementation 35:36.960 --> 35:38.960 and then at the end interoperability. 35:38.960 --> 35:45.040 So those are the three things, we were discussing as well about social media and we were discussing 35:45.040 --> 35:49.920 about how to make the case here interoperability would be the great thing because you can create 35:49.920 --> 35:54.160 a standard, you can be interoperable in social media and then you have the software, so literally 35:54.240 --> 35:59.120 you can take your information from one, I know, Facebook, whatever and then you can move to Twitter 35:59.120 --> 36:03.520 and then you can move to some European case, having that power as an inducer, I think, 36:03.520 --> 36:08.880 would be a good starting point, but then we need a strong support by the European Commission 36:08.880 --> 36:09.840 or the different countries. 36:10.880 --> 36:15.760 Not exactly the answer you question, but something I think quite related is basically you 36:15.760 --> 36:20.880 have to different strategies to become sovereign in this domain, one is they blow up your own 36:20.880 --> 36:26.240 staff, everything is yours and nobody cares because it's yours to have, nobody can interfere. 36:26.240 --> 36:32.000 But another one is right to work with others who also want to be sovereign from that point of view 36:32.000 --> 36:37.040 and guarantee that the technology is not going to be a way of controlling the other parts because 36:37.040 --> 36:42.640 it's still opening common somehow and basically Europe and I think every region in the world needs 36:42.640 --> 36:48.080 to make a decision here, I want to develop my own staff ignoring the others when I want to 36:48.080 --> 36:54.000 assert my staff with others in a way that the others can algebra away with me and basically 36:54.000 --> 36:58.000 from a point of view, that's the key point when we're talking about the strategy for Europe, 36:58.000 --> 36:59.440 we need to decide about this. 37:03.680 --> 37:09.200 Thank you. Do you really believe that first-while delivering innovation and other benefits 37:09.200 --> 37:15.760 will continue to do it even when is misused because of geopolitical conflicts and other issues? 37:18.960 --> 37:20.800 Sorry, can you show you again? 37:21.360 --> 37:23.280 Yeah, I can explain more. 37:24.800 --> 37:32.400 You example with roads can prove that good roads can play against you in case of war, 37:32.400 --> 37:40.480 Roman Empire confirmed. So, while we want to make and keep force available and grow and evolve 37:40.480 --> 37:47.680 and actually stay alive, should we accept the risk that sooner or later, whatever resources we 37:47.680 --> 37:54.400 invest into force may play against us because it will be used by regions, geopolitics, 37:55.200 --> 38:02.720 other personalities and so on, it's inevitable. So, either we should stop working on force because 38:02.720 --> 38:08.880 it will be weaponized and we cannot accept it or we continue working on force because it's delivering 38:08.960 --> 38:12.240 innovation and other benefits, accepting a risk. 38:17.600 --> 38:24.480 So, someone I'll try to repeat just to be sure that I understood the question, but basically 38:24.480 --> 38:29.200 it's the question related to the balance between having something open source and basically having 38:29.200 --> 38:35.760 this accessible to other third parties that may not be related to European way of looking at things, 38:36.080 --> 38:48.000 we can say. We have a very specific question. We have a very specific definition of open source, 38:49.280 --> 38:55.840 that means that everyone can use and reuse a silver or everything. The only way, as we can see, 38:57.440 --> 39:02.640 the only way I see open source is in this way and the only way I see that this could happen in 39:02.640 --> 39:06.800 Europe basically is about having all these benefits. So, I don't see problems. I mean, 39:06.800 --> 39:11.600 I see problems from the human rights perspective, absolutely yes. I have in access to technology 39:11.600 --> 39:19.120 to dictatorship regimes and everything, that's a problem as well. I mean, that's more 39:19.120 --> 39:27.040 unethical, question than anything else, even though, yeah, I don't have an answer right now, 39:27.040 --> 39:32.800 basically. So, this has been a discussion, you know, in the free and open source community for many 39:32.800 --> 39:40.160 years and my impression is, free silver is defined the way it is for a reason and the reason is, 39:40.160 --> 39:45.200 it's very difficult to find even in this room the same ethics for all of us. There are probably 39:45.200 --> 39:50.080 very clear cases, but in most of the corner cases, we are not going to agree. So, that's why 39:50.080 --> 39:56.080 I'm free silver, we say everyone can use, that's it. And I think that's not the bad thing in 39:56.080 --> 40:01.120 the sense that in the end it's a tool like knife and the knife can be used if a good or for bad. 40:01.120 --> 40:06.000 And of course, that has a lot of implications that we need to care about, but that doesn't mean that 40:06.000 --> 40:10.880 the model doesn't work, that only means that we need to care about those specific things. 40:10.880 --> 40:15.040 And I know this is not exactly an answer to you question, but still. How do you care about those 40:15.120 --> 40:17.120 specific things? 40:17.120 --> 40:22.960 Exactly. By deciding, I'm building, I mean, what I mean as a developer, I'm building a tool, 40:22.960 --> 40:27.440 and maybe somebody is going to use the tool for bad, but that's not my case. So, what I can do 40:27.440 --> 40:34.400 is to try not to make it really easy to use it for bad, but again, bad depends on my definition of bad, 40:34.400 --> 40:37.040 on your definition of bad, and maybe not the same. 40:37.920 --> 40:44.800 Hi, Orelian here. What's your take on foundations and companies that are funding foundations? 40:44.800 --> 40:50.960 For example, last year, the New York Foundation Europe announced the Neon Air Force Foundation, 40:50.960 --> 40:55.280 which was sponsored by a few German companies. Do you think that's a good practice? And what 40:55.280 --> 40:59.200 can go wrong without? What is the good practice again, sorry? 40:59.200 --> 41:05.760 Do you have local European companies funding foundations together with the Linux Foundation? 41:06.320 --> 41:10.960 And is there something that can go wrong with this kind of model of like a breeding 41:10.960 --> 41:14.960 internally in Europe, and funding within Europe? Do you see some threat in that? 41:16.000 --> 41:20.880 So, the question is related to buy only European. Basically, if you may not, 41:23.600 --> 41:27.520 I would say that, I mean, my personal opinion again, it's, I think that's an error, 41:28.320 --> 41:32.960 because if we want to foster that collaboration and make this space, basically, to bring 41:32.960 --> 41:40.480 others, the opportunity I see for Europe, specifically is that if we start designing certain things, 41:40.480 --> 41:45.840 whatever it is, for basically the architecture, the needs to cover, whatever we need in Europe, 41:45.840 --> 41:51.520 then others may come or may not, but I only see benefits in that case. So, the buying only European, 41:52.320 --> 41:58.000 it's, if I say, English, how Turkey does it work, basically, you are isolated and that never works. 41:58.000 --> 42:02.880 So, but I mean, we are in technology and technology evolve, so, whatever we do now, we'll be basically. 42:04.160 --> 42:08.800 So, first of all, I would like to make a difference between the product and the service. 42:08.800 --> 42:12.560 The product may be free and open social work, and maybe you are buying the service 42:12.560 --> 42:18.080 from a certain company in a certain country. So, for the second, I don't really have an opinion 42:18.080 --> 42:23.440 which is relevant right here, but for the first one, I do. I mean, we can use anything that was 42:23.520 --> 42:28.960 developed in the world, and it is nice that everyone can use in any part of the world with a developed, 42:28.960 --> 42:35.120 because it is in my own interest. So, I mean, if we believe we can compete with anyone, 42:35.120 --> 42:45.600 I mean, if Europe has enough, and now let's enough people, and ask skills to compete with anyone, 42:45.600 --> 42:53.120 then we can believe that our main sport is to actually compete with others in terms of 42:53.120 --> 42:58.800 production of software or whatever. Then, what may happen is that for any kind of reasons, 42:58.800 --> 43:05.040 we prefer to use a services in Europe, so that they are subject to our regulations or whatever. 43:05.040 --> 43:08.320 That doesn't mean that for instance, we cannot use, I don't know, Kubernetes, 43:08.320 --> 43:12.400 for just because Kubernetes has been developed by Maria Maria and companies, 43:12.400 --> 43:17.200 because if we will understand and have the knowledge that what we can do is to benefit from that work, 43:17.200 --> 43:22.080 the same way that maybe they can benefit for our work for other reasons. So, I think that to separate 43:22.480 --> 43:31.360 me, Josh. Okay, my question. Now, first, I have a remark that you took about the digital initiative, 43:33.040 --> 43:38.560 European digital initiative, and the survey is only available until this Tuesday, 43:38.560 --> 43:46.640 so if anyone needs to fill in remarks, you will hear me right? Okay, yeah, so I had a remark. 43:47.040 --> 43:54.720 My question was about software, like for an open source software, and it was, 43:54.720 --> 44:03.600 should we accept like any software in any country, by any company, or do we filter by country, 44:03.600 --> 44:10.880 or do we filter maybe by individual or company? Because for example, I don't think many of us 44:10.880 --> 44:15.360 would be ready to run, let's say, I don't know, like pressure on open source software, 44:15.360 --> 44:20.560 just because even if you throw the developer, you cannot be sure that, you know, 44:20.560 --> 44:26.480 you will not be forced to put the back door, for example. So my question was about which country, 44:26.480 --> 44:31.920 do we kind of include in the initiative, and should we restrict it to, like, democratic, at least, 44:32.000 --> 44:40.880 someone democratic countries, or should we just filter out by commitment? I'm not sure if it's 44:40.880 --> 44:47.520 really clear about it. So basically, but going to the proposal that we have, what country is, 44:47.520 --> 44:52.400 is basically any country anywhere in the world, so what's the problem? We are starting the 44:52.400 --> 44:54.720 discussion about ethics, and that's a different. 45:02.240 --> 45:10.160 So remember that the cooperation in the first community is not really between countries, 45:10.160 --> 45:16.400 it's between individuals, individuals happen to live in different countries. So the idea that 45:16.400 --> 45:21.040 I think we serve is that the environment should be good enough so that any individual was from 45:21.040 --> 45:25.600 any country could participate in any open source community, as long as that person 45:25.600 --> 45:31.440 respects the rules of that specific community. Whether we can set up an environment for that or not, 45:31.440 --> 45:35.920 it's a different reason, a different thing. And for that, of course, we did kind of agreements 45:35.920 --> 45:40.080 between governments, for instance, that the agreement is not on terms of, for instance, 45:40.080 --> 45:44.800 what kind of software we're going to develop, the agreements in terms of, let's have common rules 45:44.800 --> 45:49.840 so that any one can collaborate in any community, which is different. And remember that, 45:49.840 --> 45:53.120 up to now, free an open source software is mainly a thing of persons, 45:53.120 --> 45:57.920 companies are putting resources, but in the any dispersions, the in the software, and doing the 45:57.920 --> 46:09.920 thing, right? Should we as open source community, should we as open source community do something 46:09.920 --> 46:16.000 about governments that contract the cheapest offering instead of the offering where 46:16.800 --> 46:23.600 actual contributions back to core happen? So basically, it's about the procurement process in 46:23.760 --> 46:30.560 buying in software. So basically, our position here, or what you say now, but it's what we've been 46:30.560 --> 46:36.960 trying to show is that we need to give, to have a, an issue ecosystem to open source to basically 46:36.960 --> 46:41.360 to evolve and let open source keep working and evolving and collaborating in the same way. 46:41.360 --> 46:49.360 So, make personal answer is yes, ideally, how to do this. It's the only way I've seen so far, 46:49.360 --> 46:53.600 basically, about having a conversation with policy makers and making that possible, and then 46:53.600 --> 46:57.680 ideally, through corporations, then we have the other discussion about the lobbies, 46:57.680 --> 47:03.280 or maybe how to buy only European, that could be part of the messages that we are hearing today. 47:03.280 --> 47:08.560 But the best way I've seen so far, and I think Ecclesoundation, for instance, is doing a great 47:08.560 --> 47:13.680 job in that space is having that conversation with policy makers and letting them understand, 47:14.000 --> 47:19.840 this concept about educating them, helping them understand how we work, to make this possible. 47:21.120 --> 47:25.920 I think that there are a lot of things here. One is removing barriers so that if people want to 47:25.920 --> 47:30.640 purchase an open source software, they can, because in many cases, for instance, public administrations, 47:30.640 --> 47:35.920 in many cases, they are barriers for that. But the second one is try to explain people how 47:35.920 --> 47:40.880 buying open source software solutions is on their own benefit, which is something that probably 47:41.040 --> 47:46.560 we can try to teach people about that, because in fact, it's a matter of, at least, not only 47:46.560 --> 47:52.320 functional capabilities of the software you are using, but on thinking on non-functional things, 47:52.320 --> 47:56.560 like, how can I innovate with this, or how much I'm going to depend on the vendor, basically, 47:56.560 --> 48:06.800 on this. Daniel, Jesus. Thank you. Many, many, thanks. I think we're done. Great talk. Good day. 48:06.800 --> 48:08.800 Please.